Supreme Court rules Scottish Parliament cannot hold another independence referendum

  1. The "right to self-determination" seems to be one of the weakest arguments they could have given (maybe they wanted this to fail to get more people to vote for them in the election so they can continue their status quo one party rule without actually changing much). Scotland already has one of the most independent regional governments in the world. And the compairson to Kosovo isn't great considering Kosovo literally went through a genocide. There aren't actually that many examples of countries peacefully gaining independence after nothing substantially changes in the humanitarian position there.

  2. Referring to the UN self-determination was the weakest argument ever. UK bases on Cyprus or still British-held territories or colonies to have such rights, and even Northern Ireland would be able to use that if there was a nationalist majority but Scotland is, by no means, a colony or oppressed. They are and were the main components of the British imperial identity and empire. It's their right to get independence if their nation wants to do so, but the UN criterion wouldn't help much.

  3. Lord Buckethead said it best."There should be a referendum about having a second referendum." Not specifically about this but still.

  4. it was illegal for Catalonia to hold an independence vote... but I dont think the sentiment has gone away just because it was judged as illegal and those who held the vote got tried in court, I think the same logic applies for Scotland

  5. If I understood correctly the ruling wasn't that Scotland couldn't have a second referendum, it's that it wasn't within the power of the Scottish parliament to call for a referendum.

  6. This is good for her she can keep making false promises without actual delivering them and if anything goes wrong she just blames Westminster.

  7. I think she'll just go ahead and hold it anyway. Even if it's a not legally binding "advisory referendum" it will put the UK parliament in a very awkward position if the result is clear for leave and they just ignore it.

  8. haha. There you go confusing the Americans. Be ready to explain that UK and England are not the same thing.

  9. This is on all non-Tory parties. They need to unite to take those parasites out yet they can't even begin to find common ground. Government has been trashing the economy, dividing the union and the population itself, war with Russia is looming and perhaps even China (we are almost in a modern cold war with them), climate crisis. Yet those twats can't even sit at a table and discuss things like adults. The parties are scattered like startled cockroaches and the biggest irony to me are the work unions separating from Labour.

  10. Because a massive, critical, society wide change in the status of the United Kingdom and Scotland absolutely didn't happen after the last one. Surely the entire situation hasn't been radically altered.

  11. i dont think that the redditors who responded seriously to you know of second referendums, charckle.

  12. I think that this might even be the better option for the snp. They can complain now quite a lot, while at the same time saying their hands are tied.

  13. The UK is not re-entering the EU anyway time soon unless in parts. They won’t accept the EU entry requirements, the loss of their special status and more importantly why would we want a disruptive member that could pull this crap again.

  14. The SNP has no intention to make positive changes within the UK. If the UK is successful they lose their argument for independence. They want to leave the union, not to stay in it and improve it. They’re nationalist, much like the people who wanted Brexit in the first place.

  15. The first point about Scotland not being conquered by England is a very important one. I see a lot of Scot Nationalists pushing the BS idea that England somehow conquered Scotland and forced them to participate in the empire, when in actual fact Scotland was very enthusiastic about empire building and were the driving force behind the act of union.

  16. What sort of argument is the first one? There are plenty of states in Europe that didn’t even exist on paper prior to a few decades ago (one of which is currently fighting for its independence) and yet we don’t dispute their right to sovereignty.

  17. The first two are exactly as applicable as Catalonia though? The crowns of Castille and Aragon were unified via marriage in the 15th century, peacefully. Catalonia was never "conquered" in any way by Spain.

  18. It is not about of they were conquered or a union, it is about the feeling of being a different nationality. The legal powers can be anti independence and they can do whatever they can to make it not possible. One of the main points about staying in the UK was staying in the UE and we all know about Brexit....

  19. Is this really a surprise? Westminster is the sovereign legislative body for the entire kingdom, and the matter of Scottish independence relates to the constitutional structure of the kingdom itself. Even if the court ruled in Scotland's favour, it is in parliament's power to override the court.

  20. The congnitive dissonance comes from the idea that Scotland et al are kingdoms in their own right, when in reality they are polities within a kingdom.

  21. This whole thread seems like it has a lot of people that want Scotland to leave out of some sense of revenge porn for Brexit. I feel like this attitude would not be applied to any similar independence movement in any of the EU countries.

  22. Right? I thought Brexit was stupid. It's bizarre that so many people who ostensibly thought Brexit was folly are so enthusiastic about Even Stupider Brexit.

  23. Weirdly an independent Scotland would also probably go on to be one of the more eurosceptic member states, there's really not that much of an air gap between Scottish and English/Welsh voters when it comes to desired terms inside the EU. Read through comments and you will pick up that a lot of Scots seem to have the UK's pre-2016 membership terms in mind when they talk about switching up the UK union for the EU one. Good luck with that...

  24. Eh. Personally I support any independence movement, as long as it is actually popular in the region it wants to secede.

  25. This is a very misleading headline. They said that Scotland doesn't have unilateral powers to hold these refferenda when they like. It doesn't say they can't have another one, just that they do have to go through Westminster.

  26. As opposed to Brexiteers denying Scotland a referendum despite wanting out of the EU for the same reasons? Or other Brits saying "no don't leave UK, you won't be able to enter the EU" only for Scotland to be taken out of the EU against their will and now be the victim of Westminster's self-inflicted economic turmoil?

  27. Yep. I have zero confidence that the SNP is planning anything other than to make all the same mistakes Brexit did

  28. Tue of leavers but not like the SNP don't have to do the same mental gymnastics. Their justification for a second referendum is that we left the EU but all the arguments for staying in the EU apply even more strongly for remaining in the UK. And for the same reason I don't see why remainers would have to switch arguments.

  29. Or you could have a consistent take such as being against Brexit because of the exact same reasons as being against Scottish Independence.

  30. UK & most of the developed world: "Lets hold a general election every 4-5 years because we understand people and opinions change over time, so it'd only be democratic to update who runs the country to reflect a change in society."

  31. Continual referendums on the constitution of the country create uncertainty for the economy of that country. Businesses don't tend to like making big investments if the future of that investment is risky. I think constantly being on the edge of independence isn't great for Scotland's economy, or the whole UK's economy.

  32. Factually wrong about NI. 7 years is the shortest time period in between votes but the Secretary of State for NI must be reasonably sure of a majority to call one.

  33. I would personally vote no in a referendum but that doesn't mean I don't think we should be allowed to have them. It's not really a "union" if one party of the union has no means to leave it of their own accord.

  34. Lmao Northern Ireland getting to vote as if power sharing isn't completely invalidated when the 2 main parties decide to have temper tantrums.

  35. Does Scotland have any Legal recourse left or are the SNP now going to claim that the ruling does not apply as they do not recognise the authority of the Supreme Court ?

  36. Sturgeon said if this happened the SNP will run as a single issue party next election, making the next election a defacto referendum. As far as I know that's perfectly legal. The question is, wil that achieve anything? Idk

  37. I think they're gonna claim the next election as a de facto independence referendum. It's soon enough anyways.

  38. Everyone in these comments is arguing back and forth about whether Scotland should exist, but it’s all just a big distraction from the true motivations.

  39. Wholeheartedly agree with that. I'm a Scottish unionist and would certainly respect an opinion along the lines of "Scottish people should have the right to self-determination", but comments outright calling for Scottish independence from foreigners I just don't get. There are no human rights abuses here so quite frankly it's nobody else's business.

  40. Unless your Scottish and want your independence. Then you give zero fucks to either side and their agenda.

  41. We all saw it coming, however, the the harder truth is that Sturgeon was both prepared for this response, and it's the response she wanted. It's time the sturgeonites wake up to this.

  42. At this point I would be in favour of them having the referendum. Either No wins and the nats have to shut up for a while, or Yes wins I get to experience the joy of schadenfreude for once instead of being the target of it. I might even see my taxes spent more on the part of northern England where I live. There's also the third option: I think Scottish independence is an even stupider idea than Brexit, but if I'm wrong about it and they join EU easily and become a wealthy tax haven, I can move or work there with relative ease compared to another EU country, since they will need workers.

  43. I feel like this gets clearer and clearer: whatever the moral case for having/not having it, in practical terms we need one to break the deadlock

  44. Why would it be easier for you to move to Scotland at a future date than Ireland right now? Ireland uses English and is a member of the EU. As part of the common travel agreement you can move there without a visa.

  45. I've got a fly buzzing around my desk right now, I've tried and failed to get it about a dozen times. Very annoying. But I will get it eventually, its needs to dodge me every time, I only need to hit it once.

  46. Imagine that... a devolved body with no authority over constitutional issues can't alter the constitution of the whole country unilaterally. Who'd have thunk it. Perhaps now the Scottish government can use the money it was going to waste on a referendum to give my work back the funding they just cut significantly

  47. It would be a disaster. Lots of people would ignore it as it would have no legal weight and as such the result could never be argued to represent the will of the Scottish people.

  48. Yes because the resulting 99.7% vote for independence with the rest boycotting would be a wonderful democratic moment.

  49. There is no legal basis for holding it. Local Authorises, Police, Civil Servants could all be stoped from providing support for a wildcat Indy Ref and obviously would be boycotted by Unionists.

  50. Significant changes were made and UK is no longer part of EU, were votes cast from scotland in brexit referendum taken into consideration? Wasn't the majority against leaving?

  51. I had forgotten about this but I am not surprised at the UK Supreme Court not allowing Scotland to hold a second independence referendum.

  52. Firstly, the UK is the result of a voluntary union (England and Scotland entered into a union that created the UK and ended both as sovereign states...), it's not akin to the EU as a union of sovereign states. That said, if people in Scotland want a referendum at some point (they currently don' seem to..) and vote to leave the UK that should be viable, and it is as we saw in 2014.

  53. There are all kinds of massive barriers to it. Even ignoring that it would be boycotted, there's a good chance that non-SNP controlled local authorities would refuse to allow it to be organised in their areas.

  54. Since they aren't legally allowed to, if they tried anyway every non-SNP local authority would ignore them and not provide voting booths, ballot boxes etc. Pretty hard to claim a legitimate referendum when your own capital (Edinburgh council is not controlled by the SNP) doesn't recognise it.

  55. No surprise, now Scottish nationalists won't be able to try and do their own version of Brexit but even worse.

  56. Is there anything preventing them of seeking independence like the Irish did? Since, you know, the other method has failed.

  57. Nothing screams sovereignty and self determination than having to ask permission to hold a fucking vote.

  58. It is up to the court to decide if the Scottish government is following the law. Currently that law says that a decision to hold a referendum is effectively in the gift of the Westminster government and the Scottish government can't call one on its own. And that's what the ruling says.

  59. No, and the headline is very misleading. The SNP raised a challenge because they don't want to bother going through Westminster for a referendum. The court argued that, because it is a substantial change to the whole country of the UK, they don't have unilateral powers to just hold these when they like and they do, in fact, have to go through Westminster.

  60. Well if Scotland isnt allowed an independence referendum... cant we make it an Independence referendum for England?

  61. I can't help but thinking that with this decision the Supreme Court is pushing a constitutional issue down the road. It will come up again and unless the Westminster government is prepared to actually start listening to Scottish aspirations the stonewall approach is bound to cause resentment in Scotland.

  62. The Scots had a referendum of whether or not they want to leave a political union, they decided to remain; that union in turn has a referendum on whether or not it wants to leave another political union, as a collective they choose to leave, Scottish government now wants another referendum pertaining to whether or not to leave one political union in favour of rejoining another political union all under the guise of independent sovereignty.

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