From a crocheter who has just spent the past 2 hours (sobbing) trying to figure out how to knit and this is the best it's been so far... y'all, wtf?

  1. Hey. Casting on is like, the hardest part. At least it was for me, learning to knit after being a crocheter. (And there’s no way to begin without it). You’re doing GREAT!

  2. I have taught knitting for many years. Whenever I got someone in my class that had never knit at all, I used to cast on for them, teach them to knit, to purl and then teach them how to cast on. Casting on can be overwhelming for a newbie.

  3. It is! I remember learning as a kid, grandma would cast on + do the first round and then I'd continue. And only had to learn to cast on later, what a luxury!

  4. 100% casting on was the biggest bitch I faced, then holding the yarn. Surprise surprise, I knit continental (holding working yarn in left hand, working needle in the right). After nailing these two things, it was game on.

  5. My mom had to cast everything on for me for months. I could get the hang of knitting fine but she must’ve retaught me how to cast on a hundred times. 😂

  6. Try casting on by crocheting on. Hold the crochet hook to the right (if you are a righty) of the needle in your right hand, pass the yarn around and pull through with the hook.

  7. I so hated casting on younger, until just a few weeks ago, I learnt the long tail cast on 😅 I mainly crocheted in the last few years, and finding this was a revelation… mom only taught one way (using the 2 needles) and I was crap at it

  8. Yup! I had to find the right video that told me how casting on works. I recommend RJ Knits’s basic knitting series! Took a while.

  9. This is how I feel trying to learn how to crochet after being a knitter for a couple years haha. You atleast have a few rows; I couldn't even make one row crocheting.

  10. LOL same. I had irl people try to teach me probably a dozen times saying "something something into the chain NO not there!"

  11. My hands cramp so quickly when I try to crochet. It looks like it should be easier, but it's really not!

  12. Anything I crochet just goes on for miles because I cannot figure out how to turn around and start the next row.

  13. This was me for years, I even had people teach me to no avail. I left it alone and recently I decided that I can do it… if others can why not me 😅… anyway I was crocheting within a few days. When the time is right and you believe you can do it, it’ll be easy. Also don’t be scared to mess up… if you get frustrated, put it down and give yourself a break for a day or so then come back to it with a calm clear mind

  14. I know that you are frustrated, that part sucks. But loooook! You’re doing it! It can be a difficult transition….try to give yourself time.

  15. Learning with a larger needle instead of a smaller one helped me. Also a yarn that is one color not multi to start helps so you can see more clearly what is going on. For casting on I used YouTube tutorials and practiced it like 10 times pausing it like every 5 seconds til I got it.

  16. I started with finger knitting a blanket with super bulky the first time I knitted. I didn't like how loose the fabric ended up being (even though that's probably the point), so I ended up reknitting it using two 1 inch dowels I had for macrame and used my hands to move the loops between them. Starting with that big a "needle" really helped me learn the cast on the video was using (happened to be long tail) and I went down to bulky and then worsted after that for the next ones and got the hang of it.

  17. Check what style of knitting you’re learning. For crocheters it’s easier to learn continental or Portuguese style knitting. The yarn is held somewhat similar to crochet. Speaking from experience it’s half-impossible for a crocheter to learn English style knitting.

  18. I can crochet anything. A week ago I decided to learn to knit. English throwing was the easiest, most natural way for me to start to knit. I read that I should try to learn continental and I just… I can’t figure out the motions. I drop every stitch I try to move. I keep thinking it should be natural since I crochet but I can’t do it. :(

  19. Keep going, it will click. I find circular needles easier to be honest, they are smaller and easier to work with. I am learning too, and it was really frustrating.

  20. This was me, eight years ago. I hated knitting because it didn't come intuitively like crochet did. But once it clicked, it opened up a whole new world for me!

  21. Just 4 some background: I've been crocheting for... a couple months now, I've done a couple small projects and a throw blanket so far. Easy-peasy, I'm pretty fast at it, my tension is even, and honestly it took me about 10 minutes to figure out how to do it. So, I thought in my infinite and unwarranted hubris, I'll pick up knitting too! It'll be fun and easy, I thought... It's so far been about 2 hours and I have 100% cried a bit, my hands are cramping, I keep dropping needles, the yarn is sliding off, I've managed to drop more than half of the stitches in every attempt, and ... tension???

  22. If it makes you feel better, OP, I have been knitting for 18ish years. And have yet to successfully figure out crochet. So you've mastered the harder craft first.

  23. Definitely try wooden needles! The photo looks like those metallic ones that always keep slipping/falling, I hate them!

  24. I'm a crocheter and I've tried to teach myself to knit over and over again. I finally just paid to take a class. The instructor taught me continental and crochet cast on. It's still a struggle for me to see the stitches and I'm slow but it's starting to click. The frustrating part is making a mistake and how to fix it. It takes forever. Keep at it, you'll get there. (I'm telling myself this too.)

  25. I tried knitting twice, each time a decade apart, and finally got the hang of it only after crocheting for like 9 years.

  26. Working into the foundation chain on a crochet piece is sort of a mirrored hell that is the cast-on and first row of a knit piece. It gets easier to progress after you're through it.

  27. I think it took me about an entire day to get the hang of knitting after crocheting regularly for ~6 months. Keep on keeping on! It felt awkward as all hell at first but then I got used to it.

  28. I would try with maybe a different yarn that one looks like it would a little harder to keep tension with which is honestly the biggest difference for me between knitting and crocheting. I think of crocheting more like artistic knots and knitting more like braiding.

  29. Don't lose hope! I'm going through the same process right now. (Also crochet and have had a number of false starts for knitting - maybe this time will the be the time it sticks?) I definitely spent more than 2 hours trying to get past the cast on and the first row. The tutorials that I watched are all in German, but this is close to the cast on technique that I found most useful:

  30. I’m a crocheter/recently turned knitter and I swear it gets easier! Keep your hands soft on the needles, they don’t need to be gripped like crochet hooks. I think casting on is the most awkward part for me.

  31. Been there, for sure. Keep at it. I just finished socks on double pointed needles and have only been knitting for a couple of months!

  32. Omg I feel your pain! I'm also a crocheter who's recently started to knit as well and the learning experience is just kinda weirs for me...

  33. I was a smart ass who made the same comment on a post where someone was knitting fairy lights for decoration. Turns out, there was actually a pattern. 😅

  34. Try using a crochet chain as a cast on edge until you feel more comfortable with the knitting and purling part. It’ll be less frustrating!

  35. Hey, take it easy. You're doing fine, honest! Knitting is slow as hell compared to crochet, but you can do amazing things with a knit that just won't work with a hook. It just takes forever.

  36. By jove, I think she's got it. I think your problem is trying to knit with middle fingers fully extended. You're supposed to swear with your mouth while knitting.

  37. As a crochetter who finally learned to knit, here's my advice: learn tunisian crochet first. It was a really helpful stepping stone for me.

  38. Agree with those suggesting continental knitting. I was English knitting until I did a crochet project and continental then made much more sense! I’ve moved on to Norwegian style because I love the purls that way.

  39. I'm a knitter that's trying to break into crochet. It's so hard because they're so different, you're doing good though don't give up! Maybe you'll inspire other people to branch out and challenge themselves to try a new fibercraft! One thing I recommend is to use a bright colored, heavier weight yarn on your first go, you'll be able to see your mistakes more clearly and it's easier to feel out what you're doing. I made a hat using malabrigo rasta yarn for my first project but cowls are super easy too.

  40. Might I suggest looking into lever knitting? Since you’re focusing mostly on one needle it might be an easier transition for you?

  41. If it makes you feel better, I was horrible at crochet when I picked it up after knitting. Chains are fun an easy, but ... after that the stitch anatomy had me confused. Took me a while to make anything resembling what I was trying for.

  42. I have been in the same boat as you for 2 years!! Not to discourage you but I just started my first patterned project and it is so confusing 😭

  43. Word, lol I always try crochet because I love the amigarumi but damn I have ugly fingers for crochet. Lol makes me feel so uncoordinated.

  44. Keep at it. I can't tell youu how many times I frogged stuff. But now I'm zipping along making cable sweaters and lace after just a few years,

  45. After the bit in the beginning, you did really well! Cast on can be tricky. You can start with chain stitches instead and just weave it on to your needle then start knitting.

  46. As someone who just recast her next project three times, don’t lose hope. It’s literally the hardest part every time.

  47. Get some large bamboo needles and a bulky yarn. Looks like you’re using plastic? Which makes the stitches slip more. Relax your hands and don’t pull too tight. These were my first mistakes when knitting. Let the stitches get really loose while you practice. You can do this!!

  48. I feel the same about crochet. I made some cute hats for my friends grand babies and wanted to put flowers on them. Another friend of mine crochets and sent me a "simple" pattern. I have up after 3 hours where I managed to make a chain that was so wonky.

  49. Knitting has a steep learning curve. Casting on is a pain to learn. Then getting the first rows to work out can be discouraging. Try and find either a local knitting group or local yarn store. They can provide you with some support and encouragement. That should keep you from losing your mind!

  50. Saaame! Took me 2 weeks to figure out the basics (casting, knit, purl) and finally I gave up and took a class 🤣 You're doing great though, take it easy!

  51. It took me TWO YEARS to figure it out after crocheting for over 15. And it wasn’t without paying for classes, reading books, and finally learning from a YouTuber back when no one knew what YouTube was. I haven’t touched a hook outside of a dropped stitch) since.

  52. Ha. This reminds me of my terible tight crochet trapezoids before crochet finally clicked. Could not, for the life of me, figure out where the hook goes. It took multiple attempts, several months apart, before I got it.

  53. I'm a crocheter, I followed some video and I made a thing, but I'm not sure if its a knit stitch or a purl? I'm having a hard time telling the difference. Advice welcome lol

  54. I think is a great job!! A pretty great job for a person "trying to figure out how to knit". You'll be doing better in your next attempt!!! Undo and restart and you'll see your work improved!

  55. Oh, no! There’s no crying in knitting….Buy or borrow Elizabeth Zimmerman’s Knitting Without Tears. It will make you feel better!

  56. I’m not religious at all but, I called knitting “the devils work” when I first tried learning after being a lifetime crocheter. I’ve got it down now, keep going!! You’ll get there and then all the fun begins.

  57. You’ve gotten past the hardest part! I spent two whole days forcing myself through multitudes of swatches just like yours sobbing and swearing I will NEVER switch from crochet to knitting.. and now, only a couple months later I genuinely enjoy both equally (well almost)

  58. As a fellow crocheter who also took up knitting I say this: Don't give up! It took me many, many attempts to learn this two needle witchcraft but it paid off. I love knitting now just as much I love crochet.

  59. It looks like you might be twisting your stitches. Better get that sorted out now before muscle memory kicks in.

  60. Same. I have been crocheting for 40 years and tried numerous times over the years to learn to knit. Almost three years ago I decided to check out some YouTube tutorials and it clicked almost instantly for me. My issue was two-fold: first, in the past I had been trying to learn from written instructions (which was harder for me to understand) and second, the instructions were for English-style knitting.

  61. From a fellow crocheter, I just figured it out about 2 weeks ago. Practice is your friend. Make something you don’t care about mistakes, or if you’re like me, frog and continue on…

  62. Please keep trying, it’s worth it! Casting on and keeping the edges straight is the toughest part at first! But look, you mastered crocheting and it wasn’t easy in the beginning, too, right? It’s the same with knitting! Holding the needles, catching the right stitches, tensioning - after a while it’s all muscle memory 🙂 the first weeks I frogged more (let’s call them „projects“) than I care to admit. It was trial and error really. And it was so frustrating! That’s why I understand you right now. Maybe take a break for a day or two, relax and browse for some new yarn and then start again. You can do it!

  63. I have taught roughly a zillion people to knit, but none of them were crocheters first. In my experience, few people can cross the bridge between the two.

  64. It’s looking darned good, OP. I’m a knitter first, learned thanks to YouTube, and have only done a tiny bit of crochet. But, maybe worth trying with a bulkier yarn and bigger needle. - I found when I was starting out that this gave me a much better understanding of the stitches and how it all worked. So maybe grab some nice super bulky wool and go up to 10mm needles, and just go for it! It will make a fab scarf. And, remember that you can always find a way to hide/accentuate mistakes, like with tassles, or just sewing over the ends. So long as it doesn’t unravel, you’re more or less good.

  65. When I was first learning I couldn't get my head around the cast on or cast off parts my nanna always ended up doing them for me. When I went back to knitting after I'd stoped for ages I could somehow do the cast on and cast off. When first learning it is really important to count your stitches each row and make sure you are only going through a single loop. But you've got a great start tho

  66. I started out as a crocheter too and it took me many tries to learn to knit. Two things I had difficulty with: first, make sure you're not pulling the yarn tight after each stitch. It'll make it 10x more difficult and will kill your hands and wrists. If you watch knitting videos, you'll see that they slip from one stitch to the next without a separate tightening motion. Second, check out some video tutorials about how to tension your yarn correctly. Once I corrected that and got my hands in the right position in relation to the yarn, it finally clicked for me. I also second what someone else said about using wooden or bamboo needles - the yarn is much easier to control on these when you're learning, it's harder to maintain control over it with metal or plastic needles. I hope this helps!

  67. I would try casting on using the knitted cast on, there are tutorials everywhere, but it starts with a single slip knot and would probably be so much easier for a crocheter to grasp.

  68. You are doing great! I remember not getting it at all, and then my grandma suggesting I try knitting backwards. I am left handed.

  69. There are a lot of really good YouTube tutorials out there, maybe look around and see if you can find one that make it easier to understand. And try the different styles of holding your yarn until you find the one that works for you. I learned to crochet when I was 8 and then taught myself to knit from a Lion Brand book in my late 20's. I'm in my mid 40's now and i didn't really understand what I was doing until I spent some quality time looking up different cast on, styles of holding the yarn, and how the heck to purl.

  70. I wish I could show you how I knit. I was a crocheter for years before finally learning to knit, and the lady that showed me said I was doing it all wrong. But my stitches came out right, so I think I was just holding the yarn and needle the same way I hold a hook, and I’ve never changed how I knit even though many ppl said I was wrong lol. Believe in yourself and you’ll work something out.

  71. This looks remarkably similar to my first attempts. I also came from a crochet background, and learned how to do a crochet cast on for my sanity.

  72. I feel your pain. I've just started knitting (that is to say I have needles and yarn) and after weeks of trying, I can cast on and knit some stitches. What I can't do is everything else. I'm specialising in adding stitches without a clue as to how, dropping stitches and wondering wtaf tension is and how to do it. I'm not giving up though because it's remarkably soothing and I need to knit a 'thing' to present to my lovely mother in law. Good luck OP!

  73. If it makes you feel better, I’ve been a knitter for well over 50 years. I took a zoom crochet class during the pandemic, and all I managed to make was an ugly dish cloth.

  74. My suggestion for crocheting to knitting is Make a chain and use the tunisian crochet hook to scoop up the loops for the first row and then move the loops from the hook to the needle carefully. It'll allow you to start with a good base (which is the hardest) so you can learn the stitches which are the easiest.

  75. Looks to me like you’ve got it, actually. A really rough row or two at the start, but some flailing around is to be expected at first. Much more importantly, the last few on the needles look pretty good! You truly are getting it!

  76. Can I ask what method of holding and wrapping your working yarn that you’re trying? The reason that I am asking is because I also learned to crochet first. I found that

  77. I've been crocheting since early 2015, tried to start knitting not long after (even went to a class) and it just didn't stick even though I really wanted it to. Fast forward to a few months ago, I was determined to make it work. What did it? Long tail cast on, circular needles, and throwing left-handed. Very Pink Knits is my go-to YouTuber, but there were a few others who have helped me that I found randomly when searching by technique. I've already made three sweaters (one circular yoke, two raglans), a bunch of shawls, and a few hats and cowls.

  78. A couple suggestions: -try bamboo needles (Clover circulars are great) so that there’s more grip and the yarn doesn’t slip off. This should help your tension too since you won’t need to death grip to keep everything under control. -make sure you’re trying continental knitting and holding the yarn in your left hand. I found it much easier coming from crochet than how most of the tutorials told me to hold the yarn. -don’t worry about tension too much until you’ve got the rhythm down. Tension will come with time

  79. I think a ton of people here have wonderful suggestions. One thing this made me think of is crocheted cast on. It’s for knitting!

  80. I started out trying to be a knitter. Rage quit and learned crochet. Picked up knitting again and made a basic scarf. Love it.. love knitting.. not sure I’ll do it again. Crochet is easier and faster. Knitting is beautiful and ideal for clothes but I’m not sure I’ll make those anyway. You’re doing great though! Keep trying! Once you get it, it will be worth the trouble! 💕

  81. Knitting has a steep learning curve. Casting on is a pain to learn. Then getting the first rows to work out can be discouraging. Try and find either a local knitting group or local yarn store. They can provide you with some support and encouragement. That should keep you from losing your mind!

  82. I started off as a knitter and then recently learnt crochet. Crochet is definitely way easier to pick up if you know knitting especially. I learnt at the age of 17 and it took me so long to get to a place where it was easy. Keep trying and one day it’ll get easier!! Don’t give up! You need to turn your crochet brain off and go into it completely new without putting in any crochet habits, it’ll make things easier. Go slow and don’t be scared to mess up, it’ll just teach you what not to do next time

  83. I am a crocheted trying to learn off and on...for YEARS. I have been experimenting and discovered that I do MUCH better with circular sharp pointed needles. Total game changer! Circular don't get away from me like regular needles. Sharp points more exact and LESS yarn splitting. Keep at it, we got dis!

  84. That looks like my first attempt! (and second, and third... probably far more than I care to admit) It looks like a small gauge yarn and needle; perhaps try a larger gauge needle and thicker yarn (e.g. Size 13 and Lion Brand Hometown USA). Sometimes seeing it bigger and not having to rely on very fine movements helps until you "get" how to read the stitches/tension/etc.

  85. As a crocheter who went over to knitting - I am knitting in continental style which makes it better understandable forme c:

  86. Your first few pieces will be throwaway. You have to go thru the forest to get to the other side. Your stitches will improve with oractice I promise.

  87. Don't be so hard on yourself. Cast on can be very confusing. When I first learning, a friend tried to teach me, gave me a book (that was how she learned) showed me, everything, and I got it while she was with me, when I got home, it all went right out the window. Then I find some tutorial on youtube, I find verypinkknit's instruction very clear and easy to follow.

  88. I remember feeling the very same way when I first started knitting about six years ago. I found it to be like learning to ride a bike and just as worth it for the fun ride. Best wishes for your learning!

  89. As a multi tooled fiber artist I say that this is an excellent start!!! Please give yourself more grace and patience and more than 2 hours before you give up. Pretend you're trying to teach a toddler with limited hand coordination.

  90. My suggestion is YouTube! They have outstanding videos, I use it all the time for unusual knitting moves. Another trick is two different colored needles. It makes it easier to see what each is doing. It's a hard transition but you're doing really well!

  91. I feel you! It took me several years and several different attempts to learn to knit. What method are you using? It didn't really start to click for me until I learned the Continental method, where you hold and tension the yarn in your left hand. The English (throwing) method just confused the hell out of me, and was clumsy AF. Keep it up though, you're doing great, soon you will be comfortable with it and will make beautiful things!

  92. If it makes you feel better I crocheted for fifteen years before I was able to make knitting make any sort of sense to me. I tried many many times, and made a lot of things like you have and even worse looking knots. I finally did figure it out and now I mostly knit!

  93. I just started teaching myself after years of trying and giving up but this time it stuck! I’m also an avid crocheted! The trick is keep watching YouTube tutorials until it clicks! Made my first knitted hat this weekend! Trust me you can do it! I found it easier knitting on circular needles than straight ones maybe that would help you out as well! Hang in there

  94. I am so sorry but for some reason I totally thought the first picture was you knitting with pasta noodles and I was like, “Well, that’s why it’s hard!”

  95. So all knitting and crocheting is forming fabric by pulling one loop of yarn through the last. And would you think doing that with a straight stick or a stick with a hook on it would be easier? Stick with hook of course. I learned to crochet as a child but didn't carry the hobby into adulthood. I then tried to pick up knitting some 30 years later and at first thought it was impossible. Then I read somewhere about continental knitting, where you hold the working yarn in your Left hand and poof! I was knitting. It seems that even after all that time my muscle memory wanted me to go back to the familiarity of the working yarn on the left. Not to say that I didn't spend many hours trying and frogging, trying and frogging. But I am glad I did! Knitting and crocheting have different strengths and weaknesses so it is good to have options. Cognitive scientists can say more about this but I think the impact of using both hands is good for the brain. Crochet is faster but you use much more yarn. You are a skilled crocheter and it can feel yucky to suddenly be all clumsy thumbs. It was like that when you first learned Crochet but you never remember the feeling as a beginner after you become a skilled expert. Try continental style and dont give up. You can do it!

  96. Casting on was the hard part for me too. I also went from crochet to knit. All I can say is practice, practice, practice and have LOADS of patience.

  97. Coming from a crocheter who can now knit hats, socks, and all these other things I NEVER thought I'd be able to after my fiest knitting experience, it gets better and easier with practice! The more you do it the more you understand the stitches and the fabric itself. I believe in you!

  98. Ohhhh been there. Learned how to crochet starting at 5 from my grandmother. My mom tried to teach me to knit as a teenager but I couldn't get the hang of it. Flash forward to age 35. Home on bed rest, finally figured it out. Hang in there, you'll get it.

  99. Looks great to me! Are you tensioning the yarn in your left hand? That's Continental style, and famously easier for crocheters to learn. The toughest thing for me to get over with knitting was making and fixing mistakes and dropped stitches. It's not as hard as it seems at first. Very Pink Knits has great tutorials for beginners and for correcting mistakes.

  100. Hang in there. It took me so many tries to make the leap from crochet to knit. Time after time I threw the whole mess in a corner and stomped away. Then it clicked at long last and I couldn't be more thrilled. Both crafts have their place, but I love knitted fabric for clothing and accessories.

  101. Dude! You are doing it! Take a break, eat some chocolate and then try again. And again. And soon you'll be hooked.

  102. As far as casting on goes, look into long tail cast on and cable cast ons. Youtube is a godsend. Both give a bit more structure when starting. Remember that it takes time to learn a new skill and it looks like you are doing just fine! Keep trying and eventually it will be fairly smooth.

  103. Youll get there! Just keep at it. I learned to knit first. Was terrible at it for a couple years before taking up crochet and getting pretty good at it using all the stitches and techniques with great results. I went back to knitting and it's still a challenge. So many rules and their patterns are like an entirely different language than crochet. But I'm still at it making all the mistakes and trying to get better. Taught my hooker friend to cast on, knit/purl, and I swear she's already better than me.

  104. When I learned how to knit it took me months of pure spite and determination to prove my mother wrong. I got so frustrated, and cried and screamed more than I'm proud of....but you'll get there eventually, and when you do it is one of the most satisfying things in the world. And I like to brag abt being able to knit as well as crochet XD

  105. From a crocheter... You did better than me my first time. I swore I'd never knit again. I finally found a cast on that worked for me (long tail cast on) and I can finally knit. Keep at it, try different casts on. You can do it! ❤️

  106. As a crocheter who learned how to knit from YouTube videos, I implore you to try continental knitting. The yarn is held in your left hand like crochet and you don't have to let go of your needles to yarn over. You can do it! Keep at it and it will get easier.

  107. The first few rounds are always the worst. 15 years knitting and I still have to redo about 50 percent of my cast ons...some MULTIPLE times, until you get so frustrated that the project just isn't worth it anymore 🤣

  108. If you want to keep trying but are having a hard time figuring it out I always suggest trying to learn via a different method. If you’re using a book maybe try watching a YouTube tutorial, if you’re watching a YouTube tutorial try using a book or go to a class and learn from an actual person… I personally struggled a lot to learn from a family friend and I got nowhere learning from a book but I went online and found a video and it was exactly the right thing and I finally got it. Sometimes trying out different learning resources is the key to figuring it out.

  109. While many have mentioned Casting On. From the pics it looks to me like you may have dropped the left needle, and "lost" those stitches. Dropping the needle, or unintentionally pulling it, is a common issue, even with experienced knitters. So, while disappointing, it is not the end of the world.

  110. I learned crochet first when I was 7 and then knitting when I was 9, and the best advice I have is look at knitting as like you're doing crochet but every stitch is on the needle rather than being independent. It's still pulling yarn up through loops at the end of the day.

  111. 50+ years crocheting, and I gave up on knitting multiple times....until I figured out I need to use English, not Continental! And learned that circulars were my best friend, since I kept dropping the needle as I took off the last stitch.

  112. Keep going at it! There's always a learning curve. I remember when I first learned to crochet. I knew how to knit before and crochet seemed so daunting and difficult. Then I got used to it and better. So much so that I stopped knitting! But then I picket up knitting again and it seemed so daunting and difficult compared to crochet, but I kept going and I'm still making progress! You can do it!!

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