IndyRef2: Second Scottish independence referendum needs Westminster's approval, Supreme Court rules

  1. For those that didn’t watch. That’s a really interesting judgement, very technical in the reasoning. Self determination arguments fall flat because the case law the SNP relies on applies to colonies, oppressed people, or those without any access to government.

  2. No. Not even the SNP expected to win this, the law was pretty clear on the power to hold a referendum being retained in Westminster.

  3. It's not "siding" with anyone, it's giving a judgement based on case law. This is not a political ruling, it has major political implications, a critical difference

  4. Completely predictable. I get the impression the SNP wanted to demonstrate to their supporters that they're still fighting for independence.

  5. Blackford having a bit of a nightmare on Radio 4 earlier. Sturgeon’s suggestion that the next GE be a de facto referendum on Scottish independence has opened up a really obvious line of questioning, for which he didn’t really have an answer (although he covered it quite well): if you get less than 50% of the vote, will you concede that the case for independence has failed?

  6. It really always was certain, the court rule exactly as predicted, on the exact reasoning I said it would as soon as the snp published its case. This was never in doubt, the snp case was hilariously weak

  7. The court was used as an electioneering tool and that should not be encouraged at all. We now have a thriving growth industry in campaigners using the courts for publicity.

  8. It was a unanimous decision, I think it's fairly safe to say that the people predicting this result and criticising the challenge as a waste of time and money were correct to do so.

  9. I agree with the courts decision. But I do think Scotland should have the right to be able to decide if Scotland should remain part of the union and this is from someone opposed to Scottish independence .

  10. Personally I think Scottish born people across the whole of the UK should be able to decide, I know several Scottish people who live in England who were pissed off they didn’t get a vote last time.

  11. Irish man here. Welcome to the club. My mate "Jamaica" beside me. It highlights how old British/UK/English law is. Todsy its "heres yojur parliament but know you can do fuckall with it. Brought Ireland to war and partition. I only hope th Scottish reslise this early and ask, how did your great great great great grest great grandparsnts think of Scottish Liberty?

  12. Good. Putting aside for a moment the result, it's nice that we have a clear conclusion on the matter. I was a bit concerned that it would be dismissed, with Holyrood instructed to pass a Bill first, but that would just leave us in limbo.

  13. Yeah it's a risky gambit if the SNP actually follow through, and have a manifesto that only contains 'hold a second indyref'. What about governing the country?

  14. Unionist parties already run on a vote for them being a vote against independence? Can you people maybe do a bit more research on the subject and stop talking out your arse?

  15. To be honest, with support for independence not looking great - this is probably a blessing for them. They can go back to the days of banging on about a independent Scotland, whilst at the same time stating the UK Parliament are blocking a referendum thus their hands are tied.

  16. It's a win for them all round. They get to continue trading in the politics of grievance, which consistently keeps them in power despite everything they've failed on, and they're now excused from having to fight a referendum that opinion polls show people don't want and wouldn't support anyway.

  17. No, at least not going by the information in the article. They made an argument based on the right to self-determination and the court responded by saying that Scotland already has it since it is not an oppressed colony or similar. The initial argument doesn't depend on a colony status of Scotland, just an argument that self-determination is not being sufficiently provided by the current political structure

  18. For anyone claiming that Scotland is treated like a colony and glossing over the fact that Scotland had as much a role in British imperialism as England did, do some quick research into why so many Black people in the West Indies and United States have Scottish names…

  19. Well if you married your wife, that a good Union presumably? But then if you married a murderer, that would also presumably be a bad Union. One can say, I like that Union, but not this one.

  20. One union has spent the last 30 years devolving power, the other has spent the last 30 years centralising power.

  21. This entire process was never going to result in anything else. The SNP wanted to do this to get indy into the headlines and make it seem like the "deep state" of the UK was holding it back from being free or some shit. Nice waste of time and money.

  22. Hardly a surprise , but it still leaves the UK as a whole with a headache: pro independence referendum parties keeping winning elections in Scotland. So the desire for independence from half the Scottish electorate isn’t going anywhere regardless of this ruling.

  23. I’m very torn here between my belief in the right to self determination and recognition that neverendums until the SNP get the results they crave would be incredibly damaging.

  24. I see "Union of equals" a lot from indy supporters, is it from something specific or is it just an indy meme?

  25. The UK is a unitary state, the British parliament in Westminster has full sovereignty. It's not, and has never been, a union of equals.

  26. I’m surprised the UK even entertains these referenda. The USA, supposed leader of the free world, would never give their states an independence referendum. Are they not also a union of equals?

  27. Union of equals means you get the same democratic representation as any other individual in the union.

  28. SNP shamelessly selling independence voters the same lies Farage and Boris sold Brexit voters. There is no magic money box to draw from, there’s no rescue trade deal, the currency will in fact become weaker, the EU will not welcome Scotland back with open arms, and at the end of it Scotland will be poorer.

  29. For most Scottish voters the case for independence is a social and environmental policy one more than it is an economic one. All the Indy voters I know are happy to pay more in tax if it means Scotland can be a more open, globalist, climate positive nation, rather than being constantly dragged backwards by the rest of the UK.

  30. If the SNP really want to be dicks about it, they should start standing candidates in constituencies outside of Scotland. Throw enough sweeties at the electorate and you might just get enough of a standing in Westminster to get what you want.

  31. The FPTP system would make this self-defeating. If they did succeed in gaining any English votes, they wouldn't be gaining them from the Tories, they'd be gaining them from more progressive parties.

  32. This is outrageous. Any region wanting independence should automatically get it. On another note I've been trying to declare my property as a sovereign nation for years and the government have started ignoring my letters even though everyone living there wants independence.

  33. The only other country to leave the uk tried and tested method might not go down to well in the modern day ……

  34. *shrug* is there a democratic way for Texas to leave the USA? Or Corsica to leave France? Catalonia to leave Spain? Bavaria to leave Germany? Sardinia to leave Italy?

  35. The process of you have a once in a generation vote (which both parties agree to). You don’t have them more frequently as the instability harms your country due to uncertainty. After this you accept the result.

  36. Not many, if any, constitutions of sovereign nations have constitutional mechanisms to enable chunks of its territory to leave.

  37. They can't, unilaterally. They need to convince the British parliament to grant them one. Try being nice.

  38. They cited two recent examples in international law, Quebec and Kosovo, as is appropriate - stop being an idiot.

  39. Well if the EU treaties we ratified stated that the EU commission was required to approve Article 50 or the referendum then that is what would have happened.